He looks happy in the heat of battle. Julio Anguita says he does not miss his time in Madrid as the undisputed totem of the left. That it was a relief to leave it. But he remains dissatisfied with reality and sees the catastrophe. So he has returned to beat the copper and along the way has raised a good dust to confirm an article in which he denies that the Italian Government is fascist. Two guides to get your bearings: your biggest enemy are the markets and yours and the third Republic to the end, rightly or wrongly.
It has understood very few people that you have returned to the public scene confirming an article that contributes to whitewash the populist and fascist Government in which Salvini is. What is it that has seduced you with the Dignity Decree to pay that price?
All my political life I have been paying prices because I have always said what I thought. And restoring my wounds. The Decree Dignity sets in motion the agreement of the European Parliament on measures in favor of employment. There are many things missing but he is the only one and as such we greeted him. That is not to bleach anyone but, if someone does something right, I have to say that it is okay even if my worst enemy does it because otherwise I would be judging people and intentions and not the facts. Salvini is not a saint of our devotion but the Italian government is very plural, it is made up of the alliance of Mr. Salvini and the Five Star Movement and among them there is a tremendous debate. There is another important fact: Italy has approved a spending ceiling of 1.4%, it has faced Brussels. Of course I start from the idea that this European Union is a disaster. I am very concerned that with the stamp of fascism everyone is put in the same place with malicious intentions. The Italian Government has fascist elements but it is not fascist. I think the comrades who have criticized do not know what fascism is. What can this lead to fascism? Yes, but right now, no. Actually, the extreme right is growing because the left has abandoned the post it was giving to Maastricht.
But who does things also sends a message. That Trump is president being a sexist, an abuser, sends the message to society that someone like that can succeed.
I say: what Trump has done is very well done but he is undesirable. I separate. I give you an example: the whole world is against Villarejo, it is a pint, but it is he who rubbed shoulders with the cream of the magistracy, of politics. Is not it true that King Emeritus is a suspected criminal by the mouth of his former lover, not a friend? What is intended by highlighting that this man is a miser, that he is, is to disqualify the evidence.
Villarejo has not recorded it to you?
No one has recorded me. In Madrid I led a life as an anchorite. They warned me of what was happening, the traps, you give a reception, a lady comes, she intends to talk to you, she photographs … This has been used by the CNI, with politicians who have fallen into the trap. I finished my work and I was going to walk around Madrid, I wrote, I worked. The life of Madrid, for a politician is very dangerous.
What has been shown is that Villarejo had information about the whole world, somehow he had kidnapped the State. That comes to define how bad we have done things.
And we are doing it. Norberto Bobbio wrote an interesting book, The Double State, in which he spoke of that double State formed by the pipes, police mafias, judicial, political, economic interests … And that double State exists in Spain. Villarejo was a key player, then he was a person of status, respectable, was the villain blessed by the support that had the powers in him. Those powers are not better than him. The danger of Villarejo is that he knows what they have done. With cunning, with cuquerÃa or with prevention he used the recorder in case they came badly given. Well, it is taking performance.
Going back to the Salvini affair. Alberto Garzón on the context: “You can not praise the Unity Decree, abstracting from what the Northern League is, it is not Mussolini-style fascism, and we can not trivialize it, but we can not whitewash it.”
I regret to disagree because I think it’s a simplification. I think that is an inquisitorial vision because it does not enter into the thing and while we are doubting with appearances and with labels, they will continue to dominate those of always. We are deriving a theological debate, not political: the alleged intentions … If we look only at the labels, how are alliances going to take place? I think it is a frivolity, thank goodness he says it, to consider that the Italian Government is fascist.
There are those who consider that decree by which you assume the praise of an executive with fascist elements, is mere propaganda: that the temporary contract goes from 36 to 24 months has managed to effectively increase the temporality ands contracts last less than 24 months. The penalization of relocations does not prosper because the big companies resort to them and win and over they have increased tax exemptions and reduced the payment of taxes. We better call populism right. If the courts give the reason to the companies, then it will be a problem of Italian justice. The Government will have to change the laws and adapt them to what it is doing. But the punishment of companies that want to leave, that’s a positive thing. That there are exemptions for companies responds to the Italian Government is a strange and unpredictable pairing and has two parts. The Northern League has to satisfy certain interests and the Five Star movement, others. That’s why we say it’s insufficient. Anyway we have achieved the goal that was to provoke the debate, to denounce the problem of this country that is the European Union, which is structured through Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice and the Lisbon Conference. What is the alternative? the cessions of sovereignty that have been made, to begin with. The European institutions have taken these assignments with one hand and with the other they have handed them over to the markets to which they have handed over the design of the economic policy. Governments have left the design of labor policy but without having the necessary resources because the stability mechanism implies a control over budgets. Europe can refuse and Spain can not survive there. Only the suggestion of the Italian Government to exit the euro, raised the risk premium and made Italy lose 25 million euros in government securities. Finally, those who pay for the hostility of the European Union are the workers. Workers always lose. It is a problem that will demand tension. Or die like the little braserito that is going away little by little, with jobs increasingly in precarious or if we face, we fall. what do we do? I prefer that we face each other. Does that mean we leave the euro? The doctor diagnoses the disease, the therapy must be prepared. I think that people start to move. The bad thing is that it begins to move guided by the extreme right. On the left, people who ask themselves, what will happen to my children, what will happen to my country, will explode. And of course, facing that is very important. The left has no obligation to counter with well-done Europeanism, with messages in favor of solidarity, saying that there is no reason for the poor to confront the poorest but that there is that better manage resources? With the euro it is impossible because a single currency with unequal economies, as long as there is no policy of redistribution that means a European Treasury … It is the German currency.I warn you that if you share the message with the extreme right the extreme right has more practice in taking the cat to the water. If the left acts as it should, the left has more practice: what happens is that it has to take risks. But in addition we return to the same. It is that I am given a gig, I do not get scared saying that I agree with the extreme right. I am not of the extreme right and I will fight them in other things. I am very secular in politics, very secular. Another controversial issue: immigration. You are in favor of control and limits. Of the help to the immigrant who is already here while being resolute with the dictatorships that provoke the exodus of those people towards Europe. Do you think that any European country, especially ours, can say: come all you want? Come, let the good guys say it! Millions? Companions of goodwill, can millions come? Face that fact. I will provide another piece of information that does not seem to have an impact, but it does. In the year 2050, Germany will have eighty-many million inhabitants and 70% of them will be of advanced age. Ethiopia will have the same and 65% are under 35 years old. What is happening here has already happened in the history of mankind. The migrations finished with the Roman Empire and it was in phases. In any lost village there is a television and they see pool and food … I ask the good guys the problem: we tell everyone who comes to stay, yes or no ?. First you have to attend. It is a question of humanity but simultaneously, and this depends on the European Union (which are thieves and scoundrels), we must begin to put pressure on the regimes: not to sell them armaments, not to exploit their resources so that when developing that part of Africa, no longer have to come. Of course, that is already changing the laws of the capitalist economy. The Spanish Government itself has done what it has done. Magnificent position of the boat but then made the return hot. I can not ignore the magnitude of the problem because they can call me racist. No. Let’s stop telling stories Let’s start from the basis of the difficulty of fixing Africa. There is no will, money Neither capacity. Since the problem does not seem to have a solution, we may have to begin to get used to jointly assume them. Yes. That’s very good. Until 10 million are presented. I use your logic, yours or mine. But a logic. Let’s assume, open doors. Unlimited, because that has its consequences. What is my logic? You can place a plan on crops, on financial aid, merchants in solidarity, fair, there are a lot of different economic policies … In this problem there is nothing easy and even some solutions that seem good, they are not. What I want to bring to people is the idea that we are facing a very serious problem, in the midst of a crisis of civilization and capitalism. Vox has an argument similar to yours and then adds: first ours. I never said that . Vox forgets that here 5 million immigrants arrived because they were necessary for Spanish capitalism. Vox’s argument is unpresentable because it is unsupportive and avoids the problem, it hides it, it falsifies it, it does not enter into finding out causes and it shuts itself up in Spain forgetting what is around. Vox takes refuge in ours, in sharing poverty. That has always been the discourse of fascism. I do not agree at all. What I am proposing is that we assume the problem. And he has embarked on a Platform for the Republic, federalism, social rights and sovereignty. I am already a little tired of the Republicans who take out the tricolor flag and speak of the second. Missing project It occurred to a group of people that, in the same way that Ortega y Gasset created the Grouping for the Republic, we could organize a flexible, transversal grouping, not of the left, federal because it is a Spanish tradition and for the recovery of sovereignty. . It aims to create a state of opinion to initiate a constituent process. We are currently in 39 provinces. When would you like that process to end? I have never wanted what I can not control. If I could have controlled the process, we would have been a republic for 20 years. What I fear is that what happened in 1873 happened when Amadeo de Saboya abdicated. The deputies and senators in minor clothes met and drafted a Republic. They voted until the monarchists. So it came out. I’m afraid it might happen again: Let’s proclaim the Republic! In politics, there is no improvisation. Politics is an agrarian art, you have to sow … there is no room for haste. And how should it be? A Republic in which Human Rights are included in the Constitution and are complied with. The Republic for me has two axes. We are interdependent beings and dependent on the planet Earth and Constitutionalize means that if there is a right to work, then work is created, and if the private company does not create it, the State creates it. Perhaps we must learn from what we have seen that does not work. For example the Brexit.-The Brexit ?, Wait for 20 years. The European Union is going to explode or implode. Because people, pity that directed by the extreme right, will do atrocities … But do not sue people rationality when it lacks the least. I propose a vision of confederal Europe. This is a chess game in which I take the King and put the State. Who captures the State? The globalized capital is capturing it, but it does not want it to disappear because the State has before its people the authority that it has given it to have chosen it, democratic legitimacy, and because it wants it as a servant, as an executory arm. I want it as sovereignty. It is the piece that I am not willing to give to globalized capital. The struggle to change has not been easy but I assume the difficulty. I am not sure that the workers will follow him. In fact, in Europe they are not mired in the most extreme poverty. Perhaps they should be asked that if they want to achieve something, they should assume the sacrifice by applying rationality and inclusion. Carlos Marx: “The liberation of the workers is the work of themselves”. Like what happened in the Cadiz shipyards. It is very nice to go on demonstration protesting the existence of weapons but here is a problem. How do you get a hand? From time to time, alternative industries must be guaranteed, alternative employment. From there, if the worker has to move, he moves, because you are a citizen who has to assume his share of responsibility. Complain that you have to make frigates when an alternative job is not offered, I find it hypocritical. King Philip, his measures of transparency, his preparation, has not improved anything you have of the monarchy. No. If he is no longer King Felipe or the alleged delinquent of his father. Is that the monarchy itself, by family law, is an undemocratic concept. Someone who is not elected, right to what? Of blood? Would not be willing to consider the monarchy as an institution that has given Spain? Stability? To the economic interests that have grown in Spain and the Franco regime. That is what the monarchy has given stability. Although it has contributed a plus in the Spain brand, because of marketing, because it represents the country better than any politician of the current ones would do as head of the republic. Brand sounds like marketing and supermarket. It is not my world. I find abominable the use of the market in politics. I am against the image policies. Forgive me, in that I am radical. It seems a trickery. I speak of measures, of modernity, of human rights, of science and of technique. Passed, the leader of the PP has asked to make ERC, Cup and PdeCat illegal because they call for violence and civil confrontation. Eight less people with weight in the right because, as an adversary, I grow up with individuals with weight. These gentlemen do nothing but launch slogans, encourage, remove ties, I have not seen a proposal of the State except the 155. Sometimes one misses people like Miguel Herrero Rodriguez de Miñón. It is right but what an adversary! But these two young guys, what state proposals do they have? Illegalize political parties? For what they think? If it is for what they do, stop and judge. That to make illegal, they have the word very easy because the world for them is very easy. It is an absolutist thought without consistency. That they learn from their co-religionist Miguel Herrero to have political weight. And political weight is in the left? And a State project? Yes, there is. He is not the one who likes but if there is one. There are heads on the left. For starters, in Unidos Podemos there are people who have a political head, knowledge. Another thing is how they know how to explain and if they have support or they do not. I have between 15 or 20. Regarding leadership. Do you see the head of the left as the president of the government? I am very afraid that in an interview he can not be qualified. I have always considered that it is doubtful that this PSOE is left-wing. I would put others and I will not aponer names.And what do you think that Podemos has moderated, has renounced to lead the left and be a collaborator, aware that it is not possible the sorpaso? I will not go to that directly. I will enter by a detour. The PSOE is a punctual ally never a strategic ally because the vision of State and society that we have can not assume it. But when I have designed pacts, I have never counted on the acronyms, but with the people who integrate them. See the nuance? Because if not, he would be discarding many people who are very valuable. His people are supporting a government that does nothing but rectify. What does the power want? We are many times toys of chance and then we have to give answers that we have not foreseen. Chance meant that there was a general coincidence in taking Rajoy out of the way. It was a current of opinion that there was no one to stop her and she put Sanchez on. That current thought I take away the problem but what comes after I do not even want to think about it. A cold analysis had to have foreseen what could happen next. And the after, frankly, it is very sad because you have to support a government that until now has only made gestures, many of which have been abandoned. When is he going to leave the Valley of the Fallen? What about the tax amnesty. They have to publish the names even if it is for prophylaxis. I understand it. Understanding is not excusing. A party with difficulties, with political lines that speak of pact with the PP, some conjunctural allies that go from the independentistas to people more to the left. It is a pandemonium. It had to be foreseen. But it was not anticipated. Iglesias is satisfied because he had never had so much power as before. Look, I measure my power not by my presence in one place but by the command in place. In governing you are doing things. Although maybe you can not do much. Polakowski, the Polish Marxist philosopher, said that even the revolution is a transaction between utopia and the reality of the moment. To govern, is to permanently transact because the world to change is not so easy to change. The transaction, the agreement, the dialogue, is fundamental. Until when does it compensate? I answered each one. I measure myself in terms of the objectives that I have been able to achieve. Until 2020, will we arrive alive in 2020? You know that there is an interminable, 18, 19, 2020. With the economic crisis that is being announced, with the problem of immigrants growing, with the rebellion and the worrying growth of the extreme right, with unemployment. I do not know what to predict. I do not know because so many times what seems to happen does not happen … because there is a capacity for endurance that amazes. Or people fear a greater instability … That’s why I say there are two ways to die, with the braserito or fighting. I choose to fight because in the other way you will also die. If not you, your children and your grandchildren. Its e is the dilemma. What happens is that the mind in this time of cheap hedonism does not want to know. There is fear. I understand it but I do not share it. Do you know what is missing in this country? The prophetic discourse. A discourse that, starting from the situation, says that there is hope and from then on there is no lack of realism. That has the load of energy and enthusiasm for people to mobilize. Antonio Gramsci called that “concrete fantasy”. The definition is beautiful. It is necessary You have to be clear, do not hide the difficulties. What do you not like? ‘ As Baldomero Espartero said: let the popular will be done. How would you solve the Catalan problem? Now? It has no solution. Impossible. Because two suicide, the independence and Spanish, are installed in the famous train crash. The independence movement without 50% has been nonsense. Let’s not forget that the independence movement has been driven by a conservative bourgeois right-wing force. When the outraged Catalans surrounded the Parlament, that force thought that they had to flee from that and from the courts for corruption. Catalonia has always been aware of its identity but there was not so much independence. Madrid has a part of responsibility for having created it. The day that from a government is said: the priority is social justice, Catalans, Basques, Galicians are guaranteed such a minimum wage, such a pension … That day a part of the independence movement ends. But for that you have to do the class reading and that’s scary And the right can not do the class reading. When he says that there is no solution means that no matter what President Sánchez offers, including the Canadian method, the predisposition, the gestuality, do not serve anything? Serves as long as it is at the service of a Machiavellian plan that breaks the two speeches, the independence and the Spanish. The Catalans now have a pandemonium in their heads. You talk about class discourse but in reality it has long been a matter of class discourse if you can apply it in an independent state. That’s why for a long time they do not care about the corrupt because they are corrupt. I talk about when I was in Madrid. Then Catalonia was the most developed society, the generalized discourse of class did not make sense. Pujol commanded and the left was genuflecting before Pujol . So when my companions in Initiative called me and I was hard with Pujol, they told me: “Do not mess with Pujol because people respect him here a lot”. I told them, “do not bring me.” They knew about 3% and that Pujol was a chorizo and they kept quiet about it. There, the left was allowed to be kidnapped by the nationalist vision. And the contents of class were diluted. When the red belt of Barcelona voted Pujol I thought it was the beginning of the end. Do you know why Tarradellas is brought into the Transition? Suarez made a survey and saw that the left devastated the autonomic. Tarradellas was brought and that dragged a Catalan who did not exceed 20%. More there is not. But the left, I repeat, I am accusing, at that time, subordinated to nationalism. That he was bourgeois. There have been moments in the entire independence process that there has been an amphibiological process. It has not been resounding and the consequences are being paid. It is so difficult that it would require a Machiavellian statesman to break. That was the strategy of Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría to let the independents cook in their own juice. Does that seem quite Machiavellian? I think it’s correct. Politics is a struggle. I do not say that they are cooked in their own sauce, I say that we must try to break the backbone of an irrational discourse. What would I do? Have asked me 20 years ago, not now. Would you take a picture with Maduro before the people to defend the management and the concept of democracy that this has? I would not take a picture with anyone. Maduro is going through a lot of bad times for many reasons: his own mistakes, many, and because he has had to defend himself as he could from the pressure of the US, from the interference of Spain in the coup d’état of 2002, from the biased information and of many things. I continue to bet on the Bolivarian revolution with the difficulties that exist. I will always be with everything that is the revolution of those below. And I will criticize mine but from the same trench by hitting shots in front of me. Even when theirs betray the basic principles of the left? Which is it? Maduro is making the people go hungry. That is not true. The pressure comes from the economic powers. The poor, with their mistakes, corruption, economic monoculture, political incapacity, I do not take responsibility but immediately I must add that is crushed. That there has been talk of invading Venezuela, but what kind of pirates we are talking about! That is why I see so much injustice in the treatment, I put myself with them because I can not stand the hypocrites. Those who talked about Cuba. Of course there is a lot to talk and criticize Cuba! I am the first. I would argue with the Castro in the trench, but as we shoot at the Yankees. When I see so much injustice in the treatment, when a coup-maker is martyred in democracy, I can not accept this. Yes, calmly, treating everyone equally, we have to criticize Venezuela, here I am. To make the criticism and help, or to tell you, go away, Nicolas, go away. Now, subjected to the pressure of a front, then I say: I’m sorry, I choose mine because those are mine. I know who are mine and who are my enemies. Have you ever thought about standing next to the town? You know that when we talk about the people there are layers, there are classes. All the town no. You have to see how many still keep it in the elections. In the dictatorships there are also votes. Do not call dictatorship to Venezuela. A country that has a recall referendum, in whose elections there have been international auditors who have declared them clean. Talk about dictatorship there, for God’s sake! Dictatorship here in any case. With a King that is inviolable. There the head of state is responsible. Let’s talk about comparing with reality, not with predetermination. From the photo with Salvini we do not even talk anymore. Photos of my life are with Gorbachev, Pertini, the president of Portugal, with Arafat, Mandela … But they are obligatory photos. If I was a UI coordinator and I had to go in an official matter to Italy and the protocol demanded it, I would take a photo. And let’s not talk about photos, because there is that of the Azores with crimes of genocide. Let’s play the whole game. In which I do not go is in a game of cheats in which I’m told: you destarmate.